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 Quantitative thinking about sang chaud

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Tama
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PostSubject: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 00:11

This topic is just dedicated to this ability "sang chaud" and its mecanisms. I have just read an interesting analysis yesterday. I will try to translate it faithfully.

Master in Mathematics mandatory ! :study: :study: :study: Noobs not welcomed ! :alien:
Cats smart, so they have their places there. :cat::cat::cat:

"The concept of initiative is all but vague if you play other MT games.
The basis principle of the speed/initiative calculation is that speed has an impact on the quantity of initiative consumed. (it's difficult to know exactly what are the meacanisms of consumption)

Grosso modo, if a brute has a random basis of initiative at the start of the fight (ranging from 0 to 100 if we take into account the +200 of sang chaud) which determines which brute starts the fight.

The one with the higher initiative starts the fight.

One attack consume a certain quantity of initiative depending on the speed stat. This quantity decreases if your speed increases.

Basically, if we take a 100 points consumption with 3 in speed, the gain of 200 in initiative make you win 2 turns (the time to consume the 200, and without taking into account the random factor).

Then, if we increase the speed (and it is the main unknown, what's the algorithm used ?), we decrease the initiative consumption. Maybe a brute with a speed of 10 will not consume more than 80 pts, a brute with 20 in speed not more than 60... ect... But I have never found the good algorithm).

Thus, that explains why it is difficult to feel an effect when we invest in speed, bacause, if the consumption is 50 instead of 100, you win an attack turn out of 2, and only if we assume that the opponent doesn't have any speed boost.

That's also why the speed gain is more visible with sang chaud because iif the consumption is 50 instead of 100, the brute takes 4 turns before consuming the 200 bonus given by sang chaud. "

Caedes, I'm sure you'll love it. lol!
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Darkervictory
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 03:36

The way i see it is if your initiative is 200 with sang chuad and you have 5 speed therefore you are allowed two turns, but like you said if you add more speed to the equation your int. decreases but since you add more speed wouldnt that mean that you still have 2 turns? because sang chuad affects how many times you attack at the [u]begining but speed just helps how many times you attack over all so wouldnt the gain of spped cancel out the decrease of int.? Therefore there really isnt much change. Right?

I hope you understand what im getting at Bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 04:25

this is an interesting topic and theories, are they yours Tama or you just translated them???

Darkervictory wrote:
so wouldnt the gain of spped cancel out the decrease of int.? Therefore there really isnt much change. Right?

I hope you understand what im getting at Bounce

here is myy theories
first the 200 init affect the actions of only the brute who has sang-chaud and has nothing to do with the speed of the Opponent.
second the 200 init is not connected to the current Speed of a brute:
the Nr of attacks vs opponent with no sang-chaud or meditation is like this:

bare handed: 2 ttacks
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105349038?chk=637d

light weapons like knife and fan: 4 attacks
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105718587?chk=bbc5

light weapons slower than knife like sai : 3 attacks
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/106998676?chk=e7b8

whip: 2 attacks
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/103960501?chk=71f5

heavy weapons like stone hammer, Flail or club : 2 attack
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/104298630?chk=814e

if both had sang-chaud then the brute with the highiest Speed begins
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105314212?chk=9fed
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105389634?chk=baea

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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 04:47

Rico wrote:
if both had sang-chaud then the brute with the highiest Speed begins
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105314212?chk=9fed
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105389634?chk=baea



So then what if they both have the same speed and have sang chuad....


is it from there just a random pick??
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Rico
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 14:08

Darkervictory wrote:
Rico wrote:
if both had sang-chaud then the brute with the highiest Speed begins
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105314212?chk=9fed
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/105389634?chk=baea



So then what if they both have the same speed and have sang chuad....


is it from there just a random pick??
then its lottory Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 18:13

I thought sang chaud makes you automatically attack first and two times in a row, thats about it, its not more complicated than this.

And if you have some light/fast weapon like knife, you may attack more times, but not because of sang chaud, its because of the weapon...

And I think after the initial attacks, a sang chaud brute becomes slower than usual


AND Meditation works just the opposite... You lose the two first rounds without attacking and after your speed goes nuts!
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 18:41

I think shang chaud it's one of the best muxxu skills... Shocked Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:09

NixxxoN wrote:

And if you have some light/fast weapon like knife, you may attack more times, but not because of sang chaud, its because of the weapon...
yes 100 % right.
and this is what Tama is trying to say in his Post (in initial formula) and i translated his Initial Numbers in Examples that we can see in fights.

from the moment when your brute draws a weapon, its (the weapons) initial start working letting him attack for as much initial as these weapons give him:
so in another words which i wrote above every fight i posted: if you draw these weapons:
knife you will get 200 init just at the moment you draw it + 200 init from sang-chaud= 400 init ----> 4 attacks
sai you will get 150 init just at the moment you draw it + 200 init from sang-chaud = 350 init ----> 3-4 attacks
Whip you will get 100 init just at the moment you draw it + 200 init from sang-chaud = 300 init ----> 3 attacks
Flail you will get 50 init just at the moment you draw it + 200 init from sang-chaud = 250 init ----> 2 attacks

here to remember if you draw Flail or stone hammer without having sang-chaud you get 50 init which mean, after you attack once the opponent gets an additinal 50 init + his normal 100 init when it is his turn to attack = 150 init ----> he gets 2 attacks

and now in this case it is a perfect example to explain what strong Arm does:
in this case if you have strong Arm you get after drawing a heavy weapon 75 init instead of 50 init which gives the opponent 125 init to start with after you finish attacking and 125 init means ----> he gets 1 attack instead of 2 attacks

NixxxoN wrote:
And I think after the initial attacks, a sang chaud brute becomes slower than usual
this is not true
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:39

Well no need for so much mathematics and formulas I think Laughing

Why make it overcomplicated? Its basically two rounds that you gain plus the first to attack, the rest its all about the weapons... A fast weapon is a fast weapon no matter if you have sang chaud or not

Also, how are you sure that its not true that a sang chaud becomes slower afterwards? At least thats the impression i got. For what i've seen sang chauds are not particularly fast after the initial attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 20:43

lol nixxon Wink

first you say
Quote :
Its basically two rounds that you gain plus the first to attack, the rest its all about the weapons

just to take it back
Quote :
how are you sure that its not true that a sang chaud becomes slower afterwards

stay with your first sentence, that's the truth I'm sure...
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 14 Nov 2010, 20:57

HongKongFui wrote:
lol nixxon Wink

first you say
Quote :
Its basically two rounds that you gain plus the first to attack, the rest its all about the weapons

just to take it back
Quote :
how are you sure that its not true that a sang chaud becomes slower afterwards

stay with your first sentence, that's the truth I'm sure...

Nix's first post;

NixxxoN wrote:
I thought sang chaud makes you automatically attack first and two times in a row, thats about it, its not more complicated than this.

And if you have some light/fast weapon like knife, you may attack more times, but not because of sang chaud, its because of the weapon...

And I think after the initial attacks, a sang chaud brute becomes slower than usual


AND Meditation works just the opposite... You lose the two first rounds without attacking and after your speed goes nuts!

Basically he's saying that you gain two free rounds and you'll attack first, after those two your brute
will be slower then usual. I doubt it though, but I rarely take speed so I'm always slow lol
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Thu 18 Nov 2010, 22:37

With this muxxu i do 4 comebacks , in the first round.
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/107940479?chk=17db
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 06 Feb 2011, 12:23

http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/141666326?chk=1a69

I have seen a similar fight with Truque VS Ludo. I really don't understand how sang chaud and speed work together. Does it mean that the number of assaults during the sang chaud phase is independant from the speed of the opponent ? scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 06 Feb 2011, 17:20

yes and no. that is how i see it:

sang-chaud := initiative ( your_speed (x), weapons_Speed ( initiative_of_drawn_weapon (a , your_speed (x) , speed_of Opponent (y)) ) )

x (variable) := your brutes Speed
a (constant) := every weapon has its own initiative. (knife and Fan are the highest and Stone hammer is the lowest)
y (variable) := the Opponent´s Speed

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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 06 Feb 2011, 17:52

Too much math scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 06 Feb 2011, 21:05

Ouch I have some problems to keep up with your function with several variables. Long time since I have studied it. :study:

Thus, you assume that every weapon has its own initiative value. That's interesting, you could think it as obvious but I have never considered things like this. Not bad. It would explain some abnormal things like the fight I post. :cat:
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 06 Feb 2011, 21:21

Sai, knife as i saw with my old muxxu (frappe eclair + sang chaud), have they owned initiative value, well all the weapons have it, but with sai and knife + sang chaud and high rapidite you're able to do more than +200 initiative with the sang chaud.
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 06 Feb 2011, 22:53

if you are in to Math, it might be clear with an example: otherwise ingore it Wink

here is an example to understand how the function would run:
http://labrute.muxxu.com/fight/136087664?chk=f707
x = 16 Speed , y = 2 Speed , a = 125 % initiative known or figured out from the experiance with the Leek.

Initiative ( your_speed (16), weapons_Speed ( initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 125% initiative , your_speed (16) , speed_of Opponent (2)) ) )


initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 125% initiative , your_speed (16) , speed_of Opponent (2))
= initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 125% initiative , 16 / 2 )
= initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 125% initiative , 8 / 1)
= initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 125% initiative , 8 )
8 to 1 speed diffrence is 1.5 attacks (without weapons) ( this is verified from any lvl3 fights with this speed diffrence)
= initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 125% initiative , 150% initiative )
125% initiative is attacking 4 times when the opponent attacks 3 times,
150% initiative is attacking 3 times when the opponent attacks 2 times,
both result a 140% initiative which is attacking 7 times when the opponents attacks 5 times.
= initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 140% initiative )

in the weapons_speed function:

weapons_Speed ( initiative_of_drawn_weapon ( 140% initiative) ) = 140% initiative

in the main function considering sang-chaud:

Initiative ( your_speed (16), 140% initiative )
with x = 16 speed any brute will get 2 attacks with bare hands if he has sang-chaud. now adding the 140% initiative for using the leek:
here it is not about the weapons anymore , but only about the number of attacks.

= 2 x 140% initiative = 280% initiative = 3 attacks

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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Sun 26 Jun 2011, 23:03

what is the english name of sang chaud?
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Mon 27 Jun 2011, 17:55

^^First strike
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PostSubject: Re: Quantitative thinking about sang chaud    Wed 08 Aug 2012, 18:26

Resurrecting this old thread with a new observation involving Filet/Net. If your brute has sang-chaud and the opponent doesn't, and your brute throws the net on the opponent, your sang-chaud initiative is over. I have seen this several times with fast brutes who will get 3 and even 4 turns against a brute (or more if the opponent has meditation) but if they net the same opponent, sang-chaud ends right away. It doesn't happen if you net a pet. I have a brute (SlapHappy) who is a puncher that does this all the time, so weapons aren't a factor.

Not sure if this is a bug, but it happens consistently, so there is one useful tip: if you have sang-chaud and you get offered the net, refuse it. In SlapHappy's case, the net comes first, and before some awesome stuff, so I keep it, and he doesn't toss it every single time.

I have also noticed that at high levels, sang-chaud is an extremely powerful skill, especially when combined with vandalisme. Brutes with sang-chaud and fast weapons and vandalisme can really mess you up before you can even move.
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